and it's my pleasure to

introduce you to what you will find to be a fascinating discussion of a new book that is just come out with its author, and we're going to be talking about history. we're going to be talking about world wars about global conflicts and don't be surprised if we also don't spend some time talking about current conflicts particularly the war in ukraine because as you'll find out this book, and it's author because many insights into what's happening there and the lessons of history and what they provide us for the view of what's of what's happening now and also what's coming attila is alive better. zevitsi is a noted hungarian economist at a banking and

capital marx executive with over 30 years experience in austria and central. eastern europe between 2004 and 2008 he served as president of the budapest stock exchange and is a proud recipient of the knights cross order of the republic of hungary awarded to him in recognition of his contribution to the development of the hungarian securities market and pension system. we should also note that as a former pentathlete and fencer. he is the chairman of the board of bom hungarian sports foundation. now since 2012 as a professional photographer in an amateur historian, he and his company historical military photos have been producing first and second world war related photographic images for among others the french company the beaches of normandy tours. and in 2014 on the eve of the

centenary of the start of the great war he began to work on this book. this is an amazing work. i have to tell you and when i when i first got a chance to glance through it and to see the beautiful photographs and the very moving and informative captions that went with it. i realized this must have been in many ways a great labor of love for you particularly because the amount of time that you spent working on it and traveling everywhere if i can frame it for our audience for those who haven't read the book yet. basically what you've done is to tour virtually every battlefield major and minor of the great war and not just the usual suspects like verdun and passion dell and the psalm and the usual battles. we think about with the western front but also the battlefields of the eastern front the battlefields in turkey during the gallipoli campaign, but even

battlefields as far of far away as southwest africa as what was then, titania and the campaigns in the middle east it's just an extraordinary trip. so tell us about that how you got started and about your your extremely distinguished traveling companion as part of the part of the journey. well, thank you very much for the interest and for this discussion today the journey started in 2014. it started out as a much smaller scale project. i was preparing some photography work for an exhibition for the centennial of the start of the first world war and then came the idea that perhaps this could make a book and later at that time. it was still so to be a smaller book for for 2016 so we thought it would be already by then, but

from 2014. during the christmas truce i was i was suddenly realizing that. the whole centennial program in europe will be much much larger scale than inticipated and it is very photographic and you have reenactors you have statesmen's you have history enthusiasts. so there was a huge interest and and then i realized that maybe we should record this and photograph. all the way till armistice day in 2018 and and that created the project a big one a big one and this is just really the first volume that only takes us up through to the end of 1915. yes, and so you've got 1960 197 19 to come out with at least one more volume.

yeah, i think yeah a second volume will be covering. yeah those years when the armies were wearing or already helmets. yeah, so that's that's how the watershed. yes who parts because 14 15 still armies were preparing for a very different war. right? and as far as the western front will be usually think about we think about world war one as a as a western european conflict between the british french and the germans and then eventually americans. the real fighting the real slaughter hadn't really gotten underway in the scale. but now it's easy to forget that in the eastern part of the war the eastern theater. that the war was really fully engaged almost from the moment that war the country's mobilized and the war began and that includes. yeah, the engagement of your countrymen of the austrian

hungarian empire russia serbia as well as as well as germany and and the events of the conflicts that unfolded about that that i don't think a lot of american audiences unless they have unless they have relatives or family connections really realize how huge and how important that conflict really was. most people think the first word or started on force of focused when germany invaded belgium, but in fact start of the war dates back to 28th of july 1914 when the austro-hungarian army attacked by grade, and it was a small smaller skirmish, i probably that's the best word to river monitors for was pounding or shell. a battle grade and and it was a it was already an action but

relatively small one and at that time people still didn't think that this will end up in world war 1 and i didn't realize i'm sorry to interrupt i didn't realize until i opened your book that one of those monitors. still survives. yeah, and is in fact has been restored and is now in historic money that the serps obviously kept it. so and they restored it just a few years. they started to restore it few years ago and andy became already by first of november 2021. so it's a very this is the first book that has that monitor in it. so, yeah. now over the next several months and into 1917 massive armies would be mobilized in the east right? yeah. as austria-hungary and germany now became fully engaged with with russia in the conflict and

the great battles, which you talk about and have very moving photographs of the of the battlefields, but also of the graveyards of those who fell in those in those battles that this was just really the it was the opening of a war of a war that would become much wider over the next several years as bulgaria as romania also became participants in the conflict and as the war unfolded and from that standpoint, i think it's it's important to realize. my view that it's the war in the east during world war one that really the watershed event in the shaping of the history of modern europe that in the end the country the the the western. front and the western theater

france great britain germany united states their boundaries didn't change. their national boundaries their national characters really didn't alter very much germany someone but in the east empire's disappeared new nations sprang up and a whole new destiny for for tens of millions of people opened up as a result of the conflict. that was that that was unleashed but the assassination of franz joseph friends ferdinand, excuse me, his son in in sarajevo in june letting alone from asus lorraine, which was the debated territory between france and germany. that was the the major border change on the west on the east. yes, you had those territories those nations which belong to the russian empire the german the austro-hungarian empire and

the ottoman empire. so the eastern europe central eastern europe was always divided by these big empires and and the whole war started out with the belief that monarchies and his empires and the colonial empires will be strengthened by the end of the war and they will live on and nobody expected that in fact, not one single nation will be achieving any of its goal that was set before the start of the war. especially nobody expected that all of the empires will be dissembling and and falling apart. it started with the russian empire and and ended with the austro-hungarian empire and on the ashes of these empires completely new states were created. or or nations reborn who used to

be sovereign nations centuries earlier like the polls but lost their severity to the russian empire and so yes it it went through big changes very similar to the middle east very similar and the give the centennial of the war. a different kind of flavor a different kind of importance than it may have had for those in the west or certainly for the united states, you know, it's important to realize when i look out at all these youngsters sitting sitting there in their chairs. they didn't know what it was like to grow up when veterans of world war one were all around you. i mean they were it was part of life. it was was men who had served either in men. i knew older men that i knew both british and american for whom service and world war one was part of their was was part of their resume as it were in fact when i was growing up, my

father was studying at harvard cambridge, massachusetts, the gentleman who lived just on the other side of our fence in the backyard had been in the aef in france and gave me the german curaciers helmet that he had brought home as a souvenir, which i still have as a matter of fact. but that was kind of part of your world. but when the centennial came, i think certainly for americans it was an interesting date in which to notice and starting for the french and the british. it was important because of the enormous human losses that the war had brought. but for those who had been part of and whose lives were and and were affected by what happened in the east did it give a different kind of thrust to the way in which people thought about the centennial the centennial past on the former eastern from the almost unnoticed. no, yeah.

mostly in serbia or romania, but letting alone from these two countries there were no winners. in fact in the great war. everyone was in a way either part of the losing camp or or the most they could achieve is is having an independent country after 1918, but the real military victory was not achieved by anybody because you must not forget that on the eastern front the war was in fact one by the central powers. they they pushed russia out of the war with the help of the bolsheviks. so the only allied or anti-nation the russian empire lost the war before the war was ended and those who wanted they became the losers of the great

war and because nobody felt the great war as its own war. it's attitude towards the centennial was very different and there's one more very important factor that that concerns the eastern front and that is the soviet union. so the soviet union took over this part of the word after the second word war and for the soviets for stalin the great war was a bad war. the great patriotic war of the second world war was the good words and and for them remembering the first world war remembering its arist war was not part of the agenda. what's more it was forbidden and therefore if you go to ballora russia today or ukraine or lithuania? you have you don't see?

first word worse military cemeteries not even russian ones not even a few you can find but very very neglected or or totally destroyed. there's no monuments memorials whatsoever. so in 2014, it was a big thing that in moscow president putin unveiled a great war memorial that was actually the first recognition of russia's involvement in the first world war. so you see only major monuments or memorials only a romanian serbia. regarding state iran commemorations between 2014-18. there wasn't really very interesting the poll at the polish the most of the battles took place in today's poland.

the territories of poland the polish were divided between three armies so they were polish people were fighting in the russian army in the austro-hungarian army in the german army equally, so this is not not this wasn't the war of the the polish or the police state. no, and in fact as i talk about in my book the 1970 the germans even tried to present that as an incentive to get polls to join the german army against the russians and that was is that if you fight for the side of the germany will establish polish independence and the german generals thought that they would bring hundreds of thousands of polish volunteers to sort of bolster their manpower and it didn't work the polls were in fooled. by that they knew that this was going to have to be a fight that they would have to take on themselves and not through someone else. it's also interesting too that among the prizes that germany

won temporarily the result of its victory over over tsarish. russia was ukraine and it it it's important to realize too that you ukraine also is part of that great battleground that's been occupying the struggle between nations and empires. well for thousands of years really, but also is an important part of modern history as well. what about that from the point of view of memory memory of world war one for ukraine and ukrainians as it had any kind of did it have any kind of impact and when you were doing your tour there? i've been to ukraine because the to the 1916 battle or offensive of the russians the brucil of offensive was taking place in their current territories. plus they have leviv. we know it very well today from

the news. it's still not part of the military actions, but it's right next to the front line today. just like in 1914 when the russians were attacking from the east the australian empire then one of their first achievement was to take live which was at that time called lemon and that was again something big at that time, but nobody is really in the position to commemorate today because at that time it was austria-hungar is a city the most important most eastern city of the empire. there's no australian empire. these territory is now in in ukraine and at that time the russians were taking it which are certainly not celebrated in ukraine. so these days so the battles around galicia and lemberg belongs to nobody today. that's right.

which is as an historian. to say that's so sad and yet looking also understand why. if you see yourselves as having been the perpetual losers or whoever wins. ukrainians are going to be the losers. it makes it hard to to sort of think about raising a glass or a celebration for that. now, let's talk a little bit about your trip in about number one. what inspired you to go so far a field to really travel the globe in order to do this. and where did you find? what was the reception like in places like africa for example when you when he went to visit visit long forgotten battlefields at least for at least for those of us who know the world war one the whole book project started when russia invaded crimea that that created for me kidding and you situation because of me as an economist. i was under the strong

conviction that we will not see an hour anymore in europe. see we're alone simply because globalization means that even winner of potential war we'll lose more than it can actually gain out of it. so i think while today we tend to challenge the results of the globalization and we tend to label it as a bad thing or at least with lots of negativities. i must say as an economy. is that globalization contributes to word. peace big time because of the interest and and when we when globalization is is falling apart or we are stepping back from it because of the covid pandemic then it means that nations are turning towards themselves. and then through and and when

countries try to produce everything for themselves, so so globalization is disappearing then there's a chance for a war. but anyway in 2014, we were still far away from the pandemic and we were under the impression that word peace will last forever and then this attack happened and i realized that work actually can happen still in europe in the world between major powers. and besides that there was another very dangerous phenomenon, and this was the rise of the islamic state. in 2014, so i was at that time quite worried that maybe history is repeating itself hundred years later, and that really made me more. interested and more conscious about the start of the centennial of the first world

war which started in sarajevo on 28th, june 2014. so i thought that now there's a reason to talk about the great war. and and moreover because i sold that where does there are things that are very similar between today and the story of 2000 or 1914? and and this is how i got inspired to to do this book because i sold that the path in the past 200 years the most important period of humankind's history is 1914 1918 because that changed so dramatically the word and still people tend to forget about it. obviously, the first word was overshadowed by the second world war. and he even here in america people know much less about the first world war and the second

world war also the great war made america the superpower of the word not the second word. so it would deserve much much more attention just because of the outcome of the war, but but because of the of its causes and and because of its how it started because it didn't start it from one day to another it didn't start it just by capri little prince if assassinating franz ferdin, and there was a run-up many many decades so it deserves much much more attention in 2022 than then it gets. yeah. i think that's really true. and that's one of the reasons why the subtitle for the book that i did a 1917 was the birth of the new world disorder. yeah, because it became more and more difficult to establish some sort of stable global order even as economically interconnectivity meant more and

more countries drawn into a single or a a unif a holistic global system, and i guess we have to distinguish don't we between globallyization? which is a physical and economic as well as social process and globalism. which is an ideology, which i think in many ways took for granted the fact that globalization would simply be an unfold inevitably. through the future and that therefore conflicts would simply disappear forgetting that. from time to time people will buck the trend. and we saw that with putin in 2014 with crimea. which he got away with? yes, and so it's not surprising that he figured i might as well try it again because it was no one could really really called me on it in 2000 14 side might as well. try it again. try it again this time with an

even bigger prize at stake. i'm going to ask you this question about the trip that you took the many places that you went. what was the one battlefield or the one place that you visited that surprised you the most? the one that or the experience i should say that really was one you said? my god, this is really worth it for me personally as well as for the themes of the book. for me definitely the most exciting where the most difficult trips getting into iraq and syria and the gaza strip it it these were dangerous. obviously i had to give up my esta status for to the united states because once i entered these countries i i will be i will have to take visa for the

rest of my life, but i realized that this book is is important and telling the story of the first word without these three countries is far from because they had they tend to look at as a sideshow, but they were very important already at that time. but if we are looking back to the creation of the middle east it is it is very very important today. so obviously the at that time when i traveled there the islamic state was still present in iraq and syria, and they were just left more soul, and i had to go to mosul because that's that's where the mesopotamia campaign ended in in 1918. so the british landed in the fall peninsula, they took basra

and then they work their way all the way along the euphratus and the tigris rivers right to nasseria and baghdad and then they continued their campaign from baghdad to to mosul. on the other hand the british and the arab revolt was pushing the ottoman empire from the current saudi arabian territories from mecca medina through karen jordan and current israel all the way to karen syria and syria was the the big price that the arab revolt was hoping to get right and achieve. and all these are photographs. you took yeah, are we able to get a camera focus on this or is that not can we do it? from the middle east and africa and the falkland islands as well

to go commemorate the battle of coronel. and the in the class between the german and british fleets out out in the middle of the south atlantic. um when he went to these places did people get in do they sort of say what are you doing here? what really there was a war here. we didn't even know we had no clue about them. yeah, that's that that this true for for the african countries and the middle east and and many of of the the countries outside europe, but the falkland islands is is the falklands is different because because they had two major historic even taking place there. so they remember both of them the 1914 and later when yeah british there was actually there was there was something yeah, like sort of came with rick came with all that so they have the battle. they they commemorated every

year in december with with the with the british army that is stationed on the islands. so they take it very seriously. so generally i can say that all the anglo-saxon countries are very serious about the commemorations of the first world war. all of them are part of the winning allies, so there's no surprise about it, but some of them like the canadians the australians and the new zealanders are dating back there the birth of their nation and their independent states to the first world war and to the achievements that they they perform there the canadians, especially at the v-made ridge and persian dale the australians and the new zealanders in gallipoli, which you talk about in the first volume and then by me ridge will come up in the discussion. yes in your second second version second volume as well.

um the other question that i've for you is looking at this now. and it's really i'm really struck by the fact that it was the invasion of crimea that got you started on this. now we're engaged in a terrible war in ukraine. and your country's doorstep? here looking now at what's unfolding and what's taking place? what kind of key lessons does this book or does the experience a world one provide for us? for what is happening now besides don't do don't make this mistake again. yeah. yeah, the russians should have learned from the lessons of first world war. because what i see is that since the french revolution. the words as the words started

to turn into democracies led by parliaments and governments some of the armies started to be under civil control. under the control of the government and some remained under warlords kings emperors and if if you look at the first world war all of the central powers germany austria-hungary the ottoman empire bulgaria. they were all having armies controlled by the supreme leader either. it's the king the emperor or generals. and they there was no civil oversight over the armies and those who won the first world war are all countries where the parliament was controlling the army and the generals. there was only one exception. that was russia, but that was

the only country within the allies which lost the first world war. and that was also a non-democratic state where the where the tire was personally leading the russian forces. so what does that mean? my observation and my assessment after the first world war. is that armies led by by democratic countries are more efficient. they make less mistake. why because there the generos are reporting to politicians who must be winning elections every four years and life matters there. in countries where the armies are led by one person who is not measured every force here in a general election. tend to make mistakes because there's no checks and balances over the decision making process on political level and on

military level and if we look at all the wars after first world war, you see that the aggressions are always committed by countries, which are non-democratic and the wars are always win by or one by countries where democracy prevails so if we take this pattern into consideration, then i can say that russia made a big mistake. under the current circumstances to go into a war because they can't win it and and we don't know how it will play out, but certainly countries without civil oversight are less successful in in maintaining their army in order and on a victorious pass. do you think that plays any part in the way in which the war is unfolding now? well, it was seen as being a

totally david and goliath struggle and the assumption. was that the russians would win in a matter of days if not weeks including myself when i was thinking about when the when the war started how long this would take place yet. what we see is precisely that same pattern being played out there aggression committed by undemocratic countries. are always starting with a mistake and that they overestimate their own powers and underestimate the enemy and what could have been learned from the first word war. is that a country? no matter how small it is, but defending its homeland is always two three four times more stronger than it's real potential justifies. think about serbia. against the austria-hungary think about belgium against germany. they were all deciding the war

basically because because the belgiums were so efficient in defending their countries. they killed the schlieffen plan. what was the goal of the germans? they were they stopped germany to execute this plan and take paris so that they can concentrate the older forces on the eastern front against russia, same austria-hungary made a mistake. they thought it will be a blitzkrieg against serbia and the war will be over by the time the big powers would intervene and and i see and obviously it's very visible to everyone. is that russia made? a number of miscalculation about about ukraine and probably this has a lot to do that. there's no checks and balances in the decision making so probably there was nobody who could tell that the russian army is unprepared partly because

supply lines and and and all the reinforcements of the russian army is not that great as anyone one goes anticipating before that. nobody tell to the leadership that wars are not fought anymore like in the second world war where have huge tank. trusts and advances are followed mechanical followed by infantry, but today there are javelins who take out the tanks and suddenly infantry is defending the tanks instead of tanks defending the infantry. so a lot of things are now has changed since the last war and seemingly russia was unprepared for this. yeah, and i think they were also unprepared for the degree to which the contest for control of the skies over ukraine.

in terms of unmanned aircraft and so on that also severely hampers the way in which the russians been able to conduct this campaign. my last question for you is twofold. and then we'll open it up to to our audience for questions. um two other things which i think have emerged from this current conflict in ukraine, which i think has some reflection on all this too. the first one is people have out that suddenly nato as an alliance suddenly has this powerful raison death again. that it's not just simply a what should i say as a a security blanket in case something happens, you know in with russia, but it's happening now and suddenly the value of nato and of membership in nato has taken on whole new meaning for for those countries who have been bordering on this conflict as well as others the second thing. i think that this war is

highlighted at others have pointed out is a degree to which this has been a struggle struggle for ukrainians about their country. and about sovereignty and about the need for a nation which is an extensive expressive of a community of shared culture of shared values and that that nation state is something worth dying for and with sacrificing for at a time when for for the last couple of decades, we've seen the global the globalism ideology being one saying that people will lose more and more their sense of loyalty or connection or belonging to the nation state ukrainians seem to be demonstrating just the opposite of a passionate and commitment to that in ways that i think surprised the russians, but i think is also surprised surprised just about everybody else. yeah, i think this war is reinventing nato and reinventing nation state both is very

important and must be part of our life. even if he's if many started to less appreciate these days. mostly because they take to peace for granted and they took globalization for granted and and nato will not be an aggressive military alliance ever by nature. why because people be in the member states would never allow armies to go. and conquer other states, these are democratic countries. i think there's another reason too it mustn't forget and that is nato represents a diversity of national interests rather than a single unified interest apart from stopping russian aggression. absolutely and on the other hand. there's nothing better marketing machine for nato than russia. my country voluntily joined eto.

nobody forced us to be a member of nato. we went into nato because we had our history track record with the soviet union with russia and we felt that it it makes hungary safer by by joining a winning. military alliance system. and obviously true the same consideration was true for poland the baltic states. and so on but this doesn't mean that nato would ever mean threat to any sovereign nations not to mention russia or anyone else your second point. yes, ukraine is fighting as a nation state and it is very important in peace time. we don't value that much a nation state, but but you can see what happens with with ukraine. they can only count on

themselves. so when when you have when your countries is attacked? and we we had the same experience hungarians in 1956. everyone felt. sorry about hungary. everyone was looking at the hungarian revolution as a as something a great even a hope. but nobody helped us no and the same truth for ukraine because nobody wants to go into a third world war. so this means that when when there's a trouble you can count on your own people nobody else if you don't defend country, nobody else will. to key lesson and all of this, isn't it? should we have some questions from the audience? questions that come up you can just identify yourself as part of the discussion foundation your fellow at the hudson institute.

i'm thinking of a book called the grand illusion. 1911 norman ansel which was sort of proto globalization. i guess they predicted in 1911. we said they'll never another european war. because the particularly great britain and germany or so intertwined german students going to oxford and cambridge british students in heidelberg and the commercial relationship between these countries are strong who wrote this in 1911. do you have any thoughts i mean sort of what you said earlier about globalization in the in the 90s wouldn't lead to another european conflict, but it's was the grand illusion in your book or any do you have any thoughts on that? the grand illusion relates to the book of 19 of 1911 angels. okay. there was a best seller i think at the time and but by british britt norman ansel wrote the book. and i think it was whitey

discussed and he just said there's not gonna ever be a war and of course three years later. was 1914 so i don't know if that was part of your it parallels what you were saying earlier, but what happened in the late 20th century. i i think on 24th february 2022 we can say that we had a grand delusion again, just like in 1914 because in 1914 at the summer of that year everyone sought that the the word will not need another napoleonic war. because we have decades of growth prosperity civilization progressed big time. europe was never so beautiful before and reach. why would we ever go to war? what they forget about is that the industrialization.

changed the word again because it took the european states into a new renaissance of colonization. and the colonization meant race for energy and and minerals and raw materials that the european industry needed and the first word were in fact erupted because of colonial race. the german empire wanted more place under the sun. it was only possible at the expense of the british empire the french and and that changed the landscape and eventually we ended up in a war now after the second world war for 70 years we sold there was the other grand illusion that that piece is granted. what i observed is that 100 years past between the napoleonic course and the first world war and pretty much 100

years passed between the second world war and the days we are in today. this is how much time you need? to lose all those generations who directly or indirectly experience the war. a great european war so those breaks in the system in the decision-making system those generations when they go out. then people of the new general so the new generations who take peace for granted because they have never experienced a war before they tend to take war as an option more easier than those who already experience war before so in this way, we are not only in a times when the pandemic is pushing back globalization and and the

countries are trying to to go back in history regarding their economies. but also we are at those days when the last people who sow the second world war 14 they're 100 year old. and and we are basically in the time when when we have no first world war, no second word war veterans at all. don't want to say take it easy. yeah. there and then we'll come out come back here. mr. slay richardson, i'm timothy walton. i'm a fellow here at the hudson institute. on your momentous work. my question has to do with another type of battlefield. i know i think your book focuses mostly on the physical battlefields around the world touring them, but drawing on your experience in the financial and economics sectors. what can you talk about some of

the economic battles or financial battles of the first world war and do draw any lessons from the current? confrontation war taking place in ukraine in the sanctions that are being imposed. it's a good question the first sanctions in history were introduced in fact in the first world war when britain. drew up its royal navy in the north sea and then the channel and blockaded, germany. they wanted to stifle the german economy by not letting any export material from the united states or from from other places of the word to reach germany, and that was a that was a early first kind of sanction and and then the germans introduced the all-out submarine warfare in return.

that was another economic sanction. try to think all the ships that was heading to the british islands. and the british blockade worked better? now in the second world war obviously be so. that the german reserves were confiscated in the banks in in america in only safe have and they had for switzerland. there so for me i would spend less time on the second word or but what is now very important is the war in ukraine because now we are testing something that we have never done before this and this is the first time when we have a six frontline in a war the first three was always there the air the sea the land

then the force came with with the space when reagan star wars project was launched. than the cyber space is the fifths and now the financial system is the six frontline in a war. so you have to fight in over six frontlines in modern warfare. and this is the first time when the western nations lined up, so unanimously and closed all channels of the financial words towards russia. obviously there's a debate out there whether this is counterproductive. we heard ourselves more than we heard the russians. i look at this in in a different way. it's not the for me. it's not the question. what is that measure which is

hurting us less for me. what is important? what is that measure that is really stopping russia to continue this war. so at this moment of time we are unable to tell by by a high certainty that this was enough or this was too much or what we should use next time. we are in a similar situation and what we can forget about but definitely the amount of sanctions that russia is getting these days is unprecedented history and expectation is that they will be forced to to give up this war because simply the financing of the war will be impossible. the bad news if this is not working. that then there's nothing else left for us, but going back to the battlefields and decide any conflicts on the battlefield,

and that wouldn't be good. for any of the nations so, let's hope it works. yeah, let's hope it works. we have time for one more question. my name is monica pottery and i'm a visiting research fellow at hudson and my question would be partially taken by tim. but anyhow, i go with the second question. do you think i mean based on all those what you just said, do you think we're living in a moment another moment of grand illusion? well, i as we discussed i think we passed that point. so the fact that russia is in war with ukraine. it is proving to us that war is possible and just like in 1914 again economic rationale reality is not preventing war to happen. so we have to it will take us

back to new new renaissance of arms race and and military alliances so the fact that the life we had in the past 30 years since the fall of the soviet union. that was a grace period which in my view will not return so we will have a new and probably very strong cold war in the decades that ahead of us. and not just with russia, but also there's another power the issue of china and in my hope is is that one of the things that we'll happen with your book, is that it gets translated into chinese. i think there's a lot of powerful lessons for both for leaders and people's about what happens when when a dictatorship goes to war. what happens to their people? thank you so much everyone. thank you. thank you for joining us and and

thank you for audience for for joining us for our for our for our wonderful discussion. have a my name is chelsea lake. i'm a member of the events team at politics and pros bookstore and i'd like to welcome you to pnp live. before we get started a few housekeeping notes. at any point during the event you can click on the link that i'll be dropping in the chat to purchase take up space the unprecedented aoc. you can ask a question by clicking on the q&a. that feature can be found along the bottom of your screen. will try to get to everyone's questions, but i apologize in advance if we don't have time to address yours.